I think...therefore, I&#39;m single...

All six year olds are different. I took her comment more as they don't always have a more mature comprehension of story. They tend to like bright colors and comedy that's physical or toilet humor which is why six year olds tend to have the worst taste ever in cartoons. Whenever my nephews were that age, we'd have to watch the most horrible Cartoon Network stuff. The plots were insanely stupid but they didn't care because it was the aesthetics that mattered more than the writing or story.

Most of the time when I was six, I didn't know how to write yet but I was making up stories with My little Ponies, Jem and Moon Dreamers. I was also picky already because I remember not wanting to see "The Little Mermaid" because I thought it looked stupid. I was more into animals and creatures than princesses so my main Disney films were Oliver & Company and Who Framed Roger Rabbit?

I also had a mom and older brothers who would take me to stuff like Back to the Future, Part 2 and Major League.

We also have to keep in mind that girls mature faster than boys. This isn't a stereotype. I've seen it in action time and again.

I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic so I'll assume you're being serious.

Plot holes...I have a feeling I'll forget some, but I'll try to list them all:

How did Elsa get her powers?

I'm guessing it's not genetic because everyone acts like she's a leper or something. No one else seems to have such powers yet the trolls seem to know everything about her condition? Who and where are the others with her condition?

Who was looking after the girls when the parents died? There should be a regent or guardian since they weren't legally old enough to run a kingdom but we're never told who. Does that mean they never had any parental influence after that point? Is that why Anna has such an immature outlook on love? Why would they continue Elsa's imprisonment and separation from her sister even if it's self-inflicted? Where are they when Hans is trying to take over the kingdom??

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ningloreth.livejournal.com

I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic so I'll assume you're being serious.

About the plot holes? Yes, I was being serious. People often talk about stories having plot holes, but they seldom point them out, and I like to know what they're referring to because, in my view, plot holes are often a matter of perspective.

I've only seen Frozen once, and that was in two parts with 2 weeks in between (on the flights to and from Vancouver), so I can't claim to be an expert, but...

I took Elsa's powers to follow the rules of folklore/fairy tale -- that some very rare and very special people just happen to be born with them. I think the Trolls even say something to that effect, but I may be misremembering. And it's not actually inconsistent with Genetics, since some conditions, like Dwarfism, can appear in families with no previous history of the condition, due to a mutation.

The regent thing didn't really bother me because, you know, fairy tale! But by the time Hans comes along, Elsa is clearly of age, so she's Queen and it's her decision.

Kristoff's not living with the Trolls I took to be a matter of incompatible lifestyles. If you were a human raised by Eagles, say, you might love them, and they might love you, but you would find it really hard to live in an eyrie. And folk tales (and pulp fiction) in which a child is raised by animals or supernatural beings but returns to the human world when he/she is grown up aren't that uncommon.

As for Elsa's parents' behaviour: I don't think it's hard to explain, and I don't think homophobia is the only parallel -- I'm thinking of how people with mental illness were treated in the past, especially kids who were hidden away or sent to institutions, and never spoken of again, because it was thought their condition would taint the entire family.

Olaf's sacrifice doesn't count, I think, because -- again, fairy tale! -- it can't be any old sacrifice that saves Elsa, it has to be a sister's sacrifice. Olaf's failed sacrifice is there to show that, and Hans's betrayal is there to show that romantic love can be a lie (but not to condemn romantic love outright, because Kristoff's love for Anna is shown to be genuine when he risks his life for her).

tl;dr: I don't actually think it's lazy writing, I think it's writing that conforms to the fairy tale genre.

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Okay, Kristoff appears to be an orphan who was just with the ice makers because a kid needs someone to care for him. He also witnessed the whole exchange with their parents and the trolls but this never pays off. Wouldn't he just tell her about what he saw as a child? Why did he go back to ice making instead of staying with the trolls or having a profession that's a Troll taught skill? His more formative years would have been with them, not the original ice harvesters.
To me, it felt like they wanted him to harvest ice so he would have that economic hardship when everything is ice, but they needed someone to think to ask the trolls so they made him that, too. It feels lazy.

Also, the parents completely IGNORED what the trolls told them. They were told to love Elsa and make sure she wasn't afraid of her powers and instead, the parents let her be ostracized and alone. They made her believe that she was a monster. Apart from being social commentary on what happens when children who aren't Heterosexual are born into deeply conservative families, I didn't understand what the point was with that. They are literally the WORST parents in Disney history excusing Marvel.

They really never saw each other ever? Like dinners or birthdays or anything? WTF?

Why did they change Anna's memory? Again, it seems like lazy writing that thought it would be more dramatic for Anna not to know. I could even accept that the accident and separation was so traumatic that she lost her memory and could only regain it after she had reuinted with her sister but the way they actually did it in the film...no.
I absolutely hate how they took away Donna's memory in Doctor Who but at least they claimed that if she remembered, she would DIE.

At least with Once Upon a Time, the trip that ended up killing their parents was supposed to be about helping Elsa although...naturally...they were looking for a "cure". I actually like the characters much better on Once Upon a Time.

I supposed the song was supposed to clue us into Hans being an asshole but I wanted more clues than that. It seemed really out of left field which I know is more realistic but I want more foreshadowing than that in a story for my tastes. He claims the kingship with no legal precedent. I know of no marriage that doesn't at least require one witness.

Why can't you just give your sister her glove back? If you're going to play keep away, at least make it good like real siblings.

Now I love that it was the love between sisters that saved them BUT wouldn't Olaf's self-sacrifice also count as an act of love? It certainly wasn't selfishness.

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Because how many other films are there that have a relationship where it isn't about the man coming along and fucking everything good again with his magic dick of 'one true love' but about sisters saving each other through an honest relationship? Any?

Even Mayim Bailik's concerns seem to be 'but won't someone think about the dicks? They have every other movie in the world, why can't they have this one, too?' (Mind you, I agree that the animated pumpkin heads are horrible, but they are the fashion of late).

Little girls have ONE movie, let them love it.

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Disney itself has made many movies about love that isn't of a sexual nature being a driving force in the story before Frozen.

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I loved the sister relationship in Lilo & Stitch. Again, they are dealing with the death of their parents and it's further complicated by Lilo's sister being her legal guardian but only as long as the state sees her fit. By the end, both are fully able to understand how much they need the other and able to express it to the other. There is also Brave which revolves around the relationship of mother and daughter where the spell is broken by their love.

It's true that children's films are not good with having sisters. It's usually easier to have one girl and one boy as siblings. There was The Little Mermaid but it just had her sisters either ignoring her or wanting her to conform which is why I liked the television series better where the sisters and their relationship was better explored.

However, television is cheaper than film and better about these things. Little girls now can watch lots of shows, including reruns of The PowerPuff Girls which is also awesome because they're superheroes and Sophia the First which is also Disney like Frozen. Sophia and her sister are actually step-siblings and have disagreements at times but they love each other very much. All the females in it are strong and independent but very loving although all the characters make mistakes from time to time like all humans.

I interpreted Bialik's concerns very differently. Even some of the parody videos pointed out that every male in the film appears to either be an idiot or a dick. I want female characters that girls can look up to, but I don't want it at the expense of males. It reminds me of a recent complaint about the Tinkerbell Franchise because it's all about women and that's great but there are very few males and when they do appear, they tend to be either trying to confine the women or force them into roles they don't want.

I'd rather a happy medium like Sophia the First where men can be evil OR loving because they're human, just like women, without being the focus of the show which appears to be your main complaint...that there should be more media where the focus is on the females?

A year or so ago, we showed my nephews the first season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Firefly. Both series really hammer home what assholes men could be, but also contain positive examples that my nephews could look up to. It was important for them to see both. Now, that they're a bit older, we showed them The Pirate Fairy Rescue...at first they complained and we gave them the choice of being able to leave...none ended up leaving though. They liked the story with its more Peter Pan elements, the humor and Tom Hiddleston villainy. We were able to discuss the mean things that were happening to Zarina.

Little girls have ONE movie, let them love it.

I was a little confused at this statement. Did you mean this year or period?
I'm always sad when girls aren't shown such wonderful positive films like The Princess and the Frog, Mulan, Madeline (animated), The New Adventures of Pippi Longstocking, Alice in Wonderland, Andre, Beauty and the Beast, Wizard of Oz, Lilo & Stitch, Matilda, Miracle on 34th Street, Heidi, Polly or Pollyanna, Halloweentown, The Color of Friendship, Gotta Kick It Up!, Twitches, The Baby-Sitter's Club, Labyrinth and others.

Then, for slightly older girls, there's Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, Legally Blonde, The Next Karate Kid, Real Women have Curves, Akeelah and the Bee, Ghost World, Bend it like Beckham, Clueless, Little Women, Mermaids, The Runaways, Saved!, Whip It! and others.

I do like the Frozen people better on Once Upon a Time because I feel like they're starting to be better fleshed out as actual people rather than characters to be described in five words or less like the film.

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I'd say 'this year' although many of the films you mention there are anti women, not pro. Beauty and the Beast, for example, is an allegory for how women are responsible for their own domestic violence. She is unwillingly isolated from her family and friends by a violent abuser, who throws things and screams at her, and she must convert him to a kind partner through her womanly charms. Google 'beauty and the beast' 'domestic violence' to see some good scholarly articles on that subject matter.

Mulan is about the non-value of women, and how they only way they can have any value in society is by pretending to be/mimicking men. It's not as bad as B&B, because it's presented that at least one woman can be kickass out of an entire country, but it's still hardly a great story for girls.

Real Women Have curves denigrate women who don't - leading to the kind of body dismorphia that leads women to have breast/butt implants. ALL women are real women!

I adored Lilo & Stitch - which is a movie about a male alien that saves a broken all female family. (A movie I can watch over and over and over, I mean, that Ohana speech at the end? Gets me every time - but yeah, the women needed saving. By a male animal thing).

Although many of those films you mention have female stars, they are not good examples of pro-female films, nor do they have a good message for women/girls.

But off the track there... need to get off my soap box more often.

I'll be honest, I was pretty much indifferent to Frozen when I saw it. The big reveal at the end was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy, and the female characters where so hideous (to my taste - pumpkin headed freaks like anime dolls, shudder), but I can certainly see why it's popular.

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Thank you for being honest about your feelings on the matter. I have been told before that I have old-fashioned/misogynistic/conservative values before and made to feel unwelcome online in certain places because of it. This is also why I feel so torn about Emma Watson and Taylor Swift and others saying we should all be feminists but while I want equality, I often don't feel like I belong to the usual definition of feminist. I don't want equality of women at all costs or if it means degrading men. I also have never voted for Hillary Clinton which has also caused me a lot of grief online from others.

Since our viewpoints are so different on this matter, I'd really like to know what you consider to be good films for little girls, pre-teen females and teenaged females to see?

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Sorry if I came across as making any kind of personal attack there, not my intention at all. My opinion on feminism is there should be room for all - that's the whole point! I support sex worker's rights and the rights of home makers and the rights of women who don't want to be baby makers and would rather have jobs. I wasn't commenting on your opinions at all, only the films you listed.

The Beauty and the Beast thing as a version of female victimisation wasn't even something I'd considered until a professor pointed it out to me a few years ago. One of those 'huh' moments.

Frozen doesn't degrade men, but it's just one of those incredibly rare films where the woman isn't the victim, needs rescuing, exists only to create man-pain, is a 'manic pixie dream girl', or otherwise has no agency outside of being a man's appendage.

I can't think of many films that give a good message to women at all, to be honest. Women are usually evil or exist only as a property item.

Also, I have little to know interest in films for younger people, so I'm not the expert. And, like I said, I didn't even pick up on the Beauty and the Beast thing until someone else pointed it out.

The only films I really like from a feminist point of view would be Alien and Long Kiss Good Night, and I would not recommend Alien for a kid (even though I adored it as a child...)

(I haven't voted for Hillary Clinton either, but then again, I'm not American! So I can't ;D )

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I do love how fairy tales, more so than any other medium in my opinion, exist in two worlds. There is the world and culture of their inception where Sleeping Beauty is about rape and Cinderella's step-sister's cut their toes off...

But there is also the culture of the current telling of it so Belle is now a bookworm or the girl destined to kiss a frog holds down two jobs to achieve her dream.

I don't think there is a right or wrong interpretation. I always thought of The Little Mermaid as one of the worst...I wouldn't even see it as a child, but another poster pointed out to me a whole new way of looking at it which makes it a lot more progressive.

I tend to prefer the younger stuff. Too many of the stuff aimed towards adults put tits and blood over actual substance. In younger oriented media, those options are already taken away so they're forced into other ways.

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thespian15.livejournal.com

Blasphemy. :o
EVERYBODY LOVES Frozen.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hugs, Jon

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I'm done with Mayim Bialik and her support for the actions that IDF took against Palestinian civilians.
That said, I hate how Frozen got hailed as the "first" feminist Disney film. Anna's a HUGE step backwards even from Ariel. Ariel's goal was to join the culture she was always interested in - the human world. To that end, she collected artifacts from it and explored...Anna just wanted twu wuv. And that "Fixer Upper" musical number rubbed me the wrong way.
Also, Tiana >>>>>> but PATF seriously got the SHAFT. Bah.

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Unfortunately, a lot of people supported the IDF.

I love your take on Ariel. Even when it came out when I was 6, I didn't want to see The Little Mermaid. I thought it looked stupid...it was all about getting a prince and I knew she died in the original story.

In third or fourth grade, they showed it in school and while I loved the songs, I hated how she gave up her voice for a guy and was supposed to win him over just with her looks? It just seemed even more stupid and she seemed very immature to agree to that especially if it meant leaving her family and/or death.

However, I love your idea that it was the culture above the sea that she really fell in love with and wanted to join at all cost.

I always thought of the first Disney "feminist" film as Beauty and the Beast since she was the first princess I could remember that prized reading and knowledge above everything else.

I used to love musicals but lately, most movie musicals seem to bore me. When "Fixer Upper' started, I was just...another song? ANOTHER SONG??? REALLY?

Tiana and Mulan are the best princesses ever.

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Well when "Part of Your World" happens, Ariel's not yet seen Eric. She has no idea who he is. She expressed her longing to join the human world before she'd fallen in lust with a dude. ALSO it's refreshing to have a girl notice how hot the guy is, instead of how it's normally the other way round. He fell for her because of her non-looks-related qualities - her voice and personality, which STILL shined through despite her lack of a voice. As for Ursula's body language line - that was a LIE, that was the whole point of that.
What's also remarkable about TLM is the one time Ariel tells a man she loves him. It's NOT Eric she says it to. It's Triton at the end. It's as much about the course of Ariel's relationship with her family as it is about her romance. Triton has come to accept the daughter he has instead of trying to make her be something she isn't.
Yeah TLM is a lot more forward thinking than people give it credit for.

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Thank you for this radically different viewpoint. It's given me a lot to think about. You have a lot of good points here.

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Also Ariel's dad had just destroyed all her treasured possessions when she made that deal with Ursula. You're sixteen years old and your dad just destroyed your collection that you've been working on for years. How rationally do you act?

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ragnarok-08.livejournal.com

Mayim Bialik wrote her own opinion on it and while I don't agree with everything she's saying, I do agree with a lot of it:

Same with me.

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surreal-44.livejournal.com

I haven't been able to get through Frozen yet. I disliked the parts I've seen, and I've read the book, so pretty much, I dislike it.

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Was this the original Hans Christian Anderson story or one of the movie adaptations?

I read the original story twenty years but I read a storybook for the film before it came out and that had actually intrigued me. I thought the trailers looked totally stupid but I liked the idea that the sister would save the other one.

Then, I saw the film and everything was executed poorly...except Idina who's always a wonderful singer and Kristin Bell was even better than I expected.

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surreal-44.livejournal.com

Oh, I've known the Ice Queen story for as long as I can remember. I read the story book for Frozen, and was utterly underwhelmed.

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By the way - this just came on my feed - you might enjoy, it's kinda funny... (not her best work, though...)

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