Sexism in Doctor Who

[ericadawn16]

Okay, I don't want a debate or an argument, I just want to know...

Why does everyone keep referring to Moffat's writing as sexist?

Please provide examples.

I also don't understand when they mention how great Rusty was with women. Now, I'm trying to remember why I liked Rusty in the first place. I know I did. Sometimes, I see episodes like Parting of the Ways and I'm totally enjoying myself, but...

Rose

Rose was a woman who hadn't gone to university or done much with her life, but she's able to help save the world

YAY!

But she's horrible to her boyfriend, Rhys...err, I mean Mickey...

BOO

Then, she's forced to lived in an alternate world where her mom gets her happily ever after and she's pining away for her Doctor

BOO

But she works for Torchwood and gets to do awesome things and save the world

YAY!

But she gets married off to a human version of the Doctor and we're supposed to feel good about that...

BOO

Martha

Martha is a successful young woman who's studying a doctor and helps save the world...err, moon...hospital?

Yay!

She spends most of the season pining away for the Doctor...

BOO

But she realizes how stupid this is, leaves him, works for UNIT and gets engaged to a fellow doctor...

YAY!

But then, we find out that she leaves UNIT, becomes a freelancer and marries...Mickey? who she's had like two words with all series?

BOO

Donna

Donna is a vain, vapid, superficial temp at the remains of Torchwood. She's been in a number of dead-end jobs and her mom isn't encouraging at all.

BOO

However, she holds her own with the Doctor and saves him as well as the planet.

YAY!

She tracks him down and wins a place as a companion, being so incredibly awesome.

YAY!

Donna is forced to forget all her awesomeness or she'll die and the Doctor makes this choice for her so she returns to her superficial self

BOO

Then, she marries and hits the lottery and we're all supposed to be happy for her...

BOO

I suppose part of why her ending angered me so much was that she and Rose had similar paths but Rose is young, she has plenty of time to do things. Donna had life experience and was able to show that even the temp, the lowest of the low jobs could still contribute and be awesome. Ianto held this role in Torchwood. He started off as the tea boy, the one who "cleans up your shit no questions asked because that's how you like it" and we want to see him and Donna succeed so much because we can identify with them more. They're the underdogs and if they can't make it...what hope do the rest of us have?

Also, they all get married off and we don't hear from them again?

I also have problems with Rusty's treatment of homosexual relationships (sometimes, they do live happily ever after) and religion.

However, with so many on my FList insisting Moffat is so sexist, I'm beginning to wonder whether I'm sexist? Why aren't I seeing what they do? Am I just blinded by the brilliance of Coupling and Jekyll? I am a Southern girl, have I been secretly brainwashed?

PS Canton is being so incredibly adorable on Leverage...

Comments

[axolotl-lan.livejournal.com]

I can't comment for lack of bias because I love Coupling and the relationships therein.

I like how he writes and Amy is awesome. She is young enough that oh who cares that she was a kissogram, the job was only a temporary thing because she was planning on travelling space. Then she marries her awesome man and it's a damned well beautiful written marriage. I like that there is give and take and they can show jealousy without it being OMGJEALOUSYRAGE but more subtle heeeey there. Plus that the jealous moments don't turn Amy into a possession to be held by the Doctor or Rory. Then there is River.....River is so Rivery and awesome and I can't see her being anything but awesome.

[mollywobbles867.livejournal.com]

I think it has more to do with things Moffat has said about women in interviews than the way he writes women, which I think is just fine (Sally Sparrow is my hero). I can't provide quotes or links like some people in fandom, but I think he said something about how all women want to do is get married. That may have been RTD, though. They've both said some not so great things about women.

The only issue I've had with Moffat's writing of women was the joke he wrote about Amy's short skirts in that short they made for Comic Relief either last year or earlier this year. Even that, though, I can just see as affectionate joking around between the Doctor, Rory, and Amy, though, so it still doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother others.

I watch DW because it makes me so freaking happy. I don't want to get bogged down in the meta.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Yeah, unless it's Rusty trying to teach me about not raping Snow White, I tend to read or not read their interview and forget 99% of them...more fun that way.

Yeah, I just thought the skirt thing was something that would happen between three very good friends...or maybe my college was weird? I remember getting yelled at for letting my gay friends slap my ass.

Well, I've heard little things ever since he took over which I dismissed at first as being misdirected feelings at not liking different show head, different Doctor but earlier, it felt like half my FList was like, I"M NEVER WATCHING AGAIN, SEXIST PRICK!

Which is like, so what's wrong with me that I don't see the problem?

You know? But then, a lot of people have also complained about the timey-whimey and I love it because I love those Dickensian/Hugo-like twists and turns where something ten episodes ago finally pays off.

[ladysophiekitty.livejournal.com]

I can't really talk about this topic without getting mad (and also I'm good at deleting them from my mind) and I do disagree very much with your interpretation of Rose, Donna, and Martha. Because they were very important characters who did important things, and were real people who changed the world and realized that they were amazing. One quote from Martha in particular always sticks out to me. "I used to think I was second best. But you know what? I am good."

But with last night's episode, what sticks out the most to me is the weight/scale comments, the jokes about "Oh, she wants to shop. She's a real woman now!" and other little things. this post in particular points out a lot of issues I have when it comes to Moffat.

That's not to say that I don't have issues with Rusty (my issues with him didn't lessen my enjoyment of Who, though). I never got into Torchwood and he ruined the character of Jack a little bit for me, which was a shame because I really liked him in s1 of Who.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

They were awesome until their final episodes and then he seemed to ruin them for me by doing the marrying off, never hear from them again thing...which is actually why I really loved how Eleven had guilt about all three in the episode the other night.

I suppose it's also personal feelings having to do with Torchwood and how he treats women there because I generally like Gwen...now, but that first season, she treated everyone who wasn't Jack awful and then you had Tosh whose main personality trait seemed to be pining after Owen. Then, there's Ianto who, again was very similar to Donna except male, who is sexually harassed in the first episode and his existence is constantly defined by his lovers instead of his own merits.

I didn't even notice the jokes you mentioned, I'll have to look for them on next viewing.

Then, there's Jenny, less than a day old and she was already kissing men to get her way...

I'm really curious about what Jack would be like around Eleven...supposedly, that will happen eventually.

[shadowturquoise.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree with you. I do a huge eyeroll everytime people get on the Moff-hates-women rant because there really isn't any evidence to back it up. He has created the most awesome women in New Who: Nancy, Reinette, Sally, River, Amy. Compared to the way Rusty seemed to think all women are defined by their relationships with men, I definitely think Moff is the friendlier of the two.

Every time the accusation against Moff comes up and people ask for references, the accusers always point to a post he made in the 1990s on a message board! I don't know about everyone else, but I have said and done a lot of stupid things in my younger days and no one should still be held to something they said 15 years ago and be expected to live by it forever. Especially a message board post!

So many people got upset about the skirt comment in the sketch, but I thought it was hilarious! Commentators had been all bent out of shape at the shortness of Amy's skirt in season 5. It was a big deal and shouldn't have been (have these people never seen 1970s Doctor Who?) So Moff has the Doctor reprimand her for the shortness of her skirt in a skit and people complain about that too! I think he was poking fun at the fickleness of the general audience and how someone will complain no matter what.

Now he did make Mels vain and spoiled and materialistic, but there was a reason for this. She had to start low in order to grow into River over just one episode. The change had to be shown as dramatic.

Anyway, my 2 cents. (which may differ from everyone else's 2 cents, but that's ok too.)

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Nancy,

! I forgot about her but she was awesome! I always wondered what happened to her and Jamie afterwards...

in the 1990s on a message board!

Especially if it was the BBCA message board...oh, we had some fun then! Unfortunately, he was big on jest and sarcasm which would escape some people entirely...that was also long enough ago that he could call out trolls and posers, glorious times. Then, everyone turned against him because of Oliver and he escaped to Planet Gallifrey... But ever since then, I thought he's become quite good at taking criticism...unlike say...Rusty?

Yeah, it does mean more that she's deliberately trying to turn into this awesome cool person through self-improvement which no matter what prompts it initially, self improvement is always good...like in Legally Blonde.

[zakath-nath.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't know, sometimes I have the feeling that some people concentrate on one (real or supposed) aspect of the scriptwriter to explain the defects in the writing or what they don't like.

When RTD was DW's showrunner I read "he doesn't write the women characters well because he's gay. Fortunately when Moffat will be showrunner we'll have good feminine characters as Sally Sparrow.". Now Moffat is showrunner and he's an awful sexist.

Maybe he is, maybe he isn't but I don't think that it's obvious in his writing, except when it 's what we look for.

I can understand that we don't like what they make of their characters but sometimes I have the impression that we want to limit their writing style only to one reason. That's not so simple.

[futurekind.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're totally sexist. Boo. If you can't figure out all the sexism and hack writing Moffat's scripts are full of I can offer this shameless self-promotion because I'm too lazy to summarise it here: futurekind.livejournal.com/51840.html

But in a nutshell, they hate Moffat because he's not RTD. It's never, 'I hate Moffat and also hate RTD.' It's always, 'I hate Moffat and RTD is awesome.'

Moff gave an interview in times of old where he said some half-jokey thing about clingy women wanting to get married and that's how the bomb exploded. Team RTD tend to take everything Moffat says literally which is a very very big problem because Moffat keeps joking all the time. Never mind his scripts show he doesn't take any of that clingy thing seriously, no, they'll take tiny details in his episodes and over-analyse them.

[goldenmoonrose.livejournal.com]

I don't get it either. Sure, there were some lines, like the "she's a woman" thing to explain River. So what? Amy makes male comments. That's just the way people talk. Moffat's female characters are brilliant. They are flawed and amazing and interesting and varied. I see nothing sexist at all.

[hbics.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say RTD is perfect, because he is far from. But Moffat is no better.

There's a huge essay I've read that outlines a lot of it. I don't agree with it all, but she does make some very good points.
http://shinyopals.livejournal.com/149435.html

The thing about being married off, which I both like and dislike. I think he kind of closed all of his characters, because either Moffat didn't want to use them, or he really wanted to keep them his characters. I don't know. I don't mind him closing all the storylines so that Moffat can't fuck with them. Mainly, more than him being sexist, because he does have some good moments, is the fact that I DO NOT trust Moffat with RTD's characters. But I agree that them all getting married. Not the best option. Idk, I have mixed feelings.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link, it was very interesting. Did you read through the comments especially Mewlet's? I've never thought of the Goddess aspect before and I definitely need to watch more Classic Who. I'm still on the First Doctor.

http://shinyopals.livejournal.com/149435.html?thread=10580667#t10580667 (http://shinyopals.livejournal.com/149435.html?thread=10580667#t10580667)

[hbics.livejournal.com]

I haven't watched any of Classic!Who yet, so I can't comment on that.

Yeah, well that's exactly, like I said, why I don't think RTD's perfect either, and again, I don't agree with everything that's said in the article. But the thing is, I have less of a problem with the way Martha (who by the way, at the end of her season, as nice character growth, finally learns that she's awesome and doesn't need to be waiting around for the Doctor to notice her) who eventually becomes probably one of my favourites of the entire show, then the fact that Amy's attractiveness is used as plot point (the recent Comic Relief was sexist way beyond anything I have previously seen on the show). I like Amy, she's sort of a mix of Donna and Rose with some added I don't quite know what.

Donna, I agree with you, RTD did a piss off job with her in the end, and I love how in LKH, Moffat used that for emotional depth to the Doctor, which, from my point of view, sometimes gets lost in the action and intrigue of it all. Donna's probably my favourite, because of all five, she's the only one that's never really had any romantic interest in the Doctor. S4 is my favourite and Donna's my favourite companion, so I don't know, sometimes she makes up for the crap he put Martha through and some of the sexism in his dealings with gender roles.

The thing for me is, RTD has never downright said "Women are needy" he hasn't stated that a relationship needs sex to be a legitimate relationship. More than what comes through in his writing, because I'll agree, not an incredible amount does, it's what he says in interviews that really put me off Moffat.

Again, not enough of it comes off in his writing, and there are many things I really enjoy about his writing style. And I love Rory, he did a perfect job in creating that character, so I'm more than willing to let it go and sit down and enjoy my weekly Doctor Who fix in peace :)

I guess I somewhat agree with the Goddess aspect. I think that Moffat is generally okay at not being incredibly sexist and does like the comment says, celebrate the power of women, but then whenever I say that, he goes and does or says something a little iffy. But I guess, to be fair, I admit that they're probably both equally good and equally irritating/sexist/etc in their writing.

I generally don't like River. The thing is, as a character, I absolutely love her, it's her storyline that sets me on edge and prevents me from loving her. I agree with Mewlett's view on the snarky attitude she has, but I think that River-sans-storyline would have done more to help in achieving female characters like that, which, agreed, DW is lacking in, aside from River. In fact Mels. Or young River. I absolutely adored, because I knew nothing of her connection to River's storyline. I hate predestination and paradoxes, they bug me, so River's "intense emotional connection with the doctor" 10 minutes after she's introduced, I think biased me against the character. Had Moff waited an episode or two, I'd probably love her as much as everyone else does.


...Wow. That comment ran away from me. Sorry if it's a bit of a ramble.. and disorganized. :D

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I did love that Donna was a mate, a sort of little sister and then that really messed him up to have that taken away.

Now, I have noticed a lot of people do not like the timey whimey. I do so I guess that explains a lot. To me, I always loved those parts of Hugo or Dickens where they would reveal how it was all tied together while the reader and protagonist had no clue!

[hbics.livejournal.com]

That part of timey-wimey crazy Moffat plot I don't mind, I love to be surprised as much as the next person. It's just having something happen because it has to happen by some great rule of the universe and paradoxes, where information (Melody's name) or objects (sonic in BB2) can exist without having been created.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrap_paradox)
(and lol, the doctor who examples is probably the longest list on the site)
(also, to note, all but one of the paradoxical examples in Doctor Who listed, are Moffat episodes. I do occasionally love his episodes, I just wish he'd stop with paradoxes. It's a pet peeve of mind)

I don't know, maybe it's a personal preference...They make my brain hurt, and several years of watching Stargate has also explained to me enough about them to not want paradoxes.

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

When people bring up the is-Moffat-sexist question, I always fall back on the same two bits of evidence:

1.) That episode of "Coupling" he wrote ("Inferno") which ends with his stand-in character giving a big speech about how women should be flattered when men look at objectifying pornography because it's awesome that men spend so much time thinking about women; and:

2.) That infamous interview (link here (http://living.scotsman.com/features/Time-Lad-scores-with-sex.2535185.jp)) in which he announces:

"There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands."

Thanks for that, Steve! Great.

Now, I am a very much not a Moffat-fan, so I'll spare you my full-out rant because Who Needs That; but yeah, there's definitely some stuff out there to suggest that Moffat is fairly sexist. Misogynistic, absolutely not; but sexist, yes.

[sea_thoughts]

Somebody linked him to that interview on Twitter. He said he hadn't ever said those things, nor does he believe in them.

So...

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

Listen, did you happen to see that Twitter exchange yourself? Because you're not the first person to say to me that somebody linked Moffat to that interview on Twitter, and he said he never said those things -- but anytime I ask people if they read that particular Tweet from him themselves, they haven't. Somebody told them about it, or they heard about it somewhere else online -- but none of them actually _saw_ his response to it. If you tell me you did in fact read the actual Tweet he gave on the subject itself, that's good enough for me; but otherwise, I won't be convinced that he actually did deny that he ever said that. I know people get misquoted all the time, but I want concrete proof of him and his rebuttal that he did not say what he is *quoted* in an interview as saying. If somebody can tell me they first-hand read his response on Twitter, okay; but otherwise ...

Although, maybe it's a moot point. There's plenty of other quotes that convince me he's got a sexist streak in him, I just happened to pick the most famous:

"Well, the world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you’re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you’re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There’s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male."

http://news.scotsman.com/doctorwho/Time-Lad-scores-with-sex.2535185.jp

And anyway, who says the Doctor would have a problem with having two girlfriends? When people ask “How could the Doctor love Reinette when he already loved Rose?”, I just say “Have you ever met a man?” No problem.

(Doctor Who Magazine #385)

The last quote in particular makes me tired. I wish he'd said, "Well, I don't see the Doctor as really being in *love* with Rose," or, "Emotions can be complicated!" Instead, he chooses to go with something that reads, to me, as if he's implying that all men are horndogs who will always be oogling multiple women at the same time. When they're not being hen-pecked by women in their "educated, middle-class" relationships, I mean. :P

Or, we can just go with the well-applauded speech he gave to his stand-in character in Coupling:

Look, I like naked women! I'm a bloke! I'm supposed to like them! We're born like that. ... Because that is what being a bloke is. And if you don't like it, darling, join a film collective. I want to spend the rest of my life with the woman at the end of the table here. But that does not stop me wanting to see several thousand more naked bottoms before I die. Because that's what being a bloke is. When Man invented fire, he didn't say "Hey, let's cook!" He said: "Great! Now we can see naked bottoms in the dark!" As soon as Caxton invented the printing press we were using it to make pictures of - hey! - naked bottoms. We've turned the Internet into an enormous international database of... naked bottoms. So, you see, the story of male achievement through the ages, feeble though it may have been, has been the story of our struggle to get a better look at your bottoms. Frankly, girls, I'm not so sure how insulted you really ought to be.

Right! The male objectification of women is TOTALLY NATURAL, which therefore means that just because they *want* to look at objectified women, that means they should do it! And we women should be *flattered* that they like objectifying us! It shows that they CARE! :P

And yes, I know Moffat himself didn't say those words. I know he just gave them to a character on his show to say. But the thing of it is -- those words were given to his main character in a speech to end the episode with. And the audience applauded for it. It was the overlying theme of the episode -- it was the "truth" given IN the episode. I have to conclude it's a truth Moffat really believes in.

... although, all this makes me wonder if I've misjudged him. Maybe it's not Moffat's sexism against women I should be so suspicious of. Maybe it's his apparent view of men as sex-drive horndogs that should give me pause.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Except as a fan of Coupling, I feel I need to point out that it is a farce.

Farce (taken from Wiki)
Farce in general is highly tolerant of transgressive behaviour, and tends to depict human beings as vain, irrational, venal, infantile, neurotic and prone to automatic behaviour.

Besides, Steve is the same character who complained about how cushions should only be for protection against Daleks and that fertility clinics were too clinical for masturbation. He's an exaggeration and while he is named and loosely based after Steven, I've thought the same of Oliver, Jeff and even to a certain extent Patrick because that's what writers tend to do. We write what we know, like Oliver liking Doctor Who. However, on Coupling, every script and show was read and produced by his wife. His mother in law was also a producer.

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

No, I know, I know it's supposed to be farce -- or maybe I saw it more as satire, or (this is most likely) as some combination between the two. And I know a lot of Steve's speech that I quoted up above *is* farce -- I would never argue, for instance, that Moffat truly believes that the sum of male invention and accomplishment was to get a better look at naked women. Of course that part's a comedic exaggeration; of course he doesn't believe that was the driving force behind the invention of electricity, or anything. :) I'm with you on that much.

But that last bit? That very last bit, where he has Steve say, basically, "We like to look at you naked, ladies, but seeing how much time and effort we devote to trying to do that, I feel you ought to be flattered that we spend so much time thinking about YOU!" That bit, I think Moffat means. I think his point that there's no reason for women to get so upset about being objectified through pornography when it's just proof of how awesome men think women are -- I think he probably really thinks that. Because that's the point, that's the argument, that the entire farcical episode is trying to make. I don't think that serious point is actually meant to be farcical; I think that serious point is being made THROUGH the farce of the rest of the episode. So I think he *meant* that.

The thing about Coupling being read and produced by two women doesn't make me feel any better, either. Women are often our own worst enemy when it comes to sexism. The "Twilight" series, authored by a woman, makes me want to throw shoes at the wall over its terrible sexism.

[sea_thoughts]

Yes, I did read it. He's reiterated it just today: https://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat/status/108958818557374464

I'm trying to find the original Tweet as well... ah, here it is!

https://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat/status/73013478759211009

followed by https://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat/status/73014880478838784

Moffat makes fun of everyone, both men and women. Including his stand-in character. Including himself. The comment about middle-class white men being suppressed was probably also a joke.

I would agree that if he's sexist against anyone, he's sexist against his own gender. https://twitter.com/#!/steven_moffat/status/108814464702349312

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

Thank you for providing the links, and thanks for taking the time to look for them! I will stop presenting that quote as proof of my theory, then. ;-) People *are* misquoted all the time, and if he said he never said that, I do believe him. And I'm genuinely glad to hear he never made those remarks.

I'm never going to be a Moffat-Fan, and that's all there is to it -- the themes he loves the best are the themes I hate the worst, and even without these quotes I *do* personally find sexism in his writing. If he is indeed sexist towards his own gender, he's doing both men and women a disservice in the process -- so maybe I should just start putting it that way and leave it at that! :)

(... but it's good to know about the quote thing for sure. That *does* help.)

[sea_thoughts]

I would never say Moffat's NOT sexist. I mean, everybody's a little bit sexist, however hard we try not to be, and I agree with you that there are problems with his writing. You're completely within your rights to dislike him, I just wanted to prove that I wasn't just making it up when I said he'd categorically denied making those remarks. Glad the links helped a bit. :)

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

(:winces:) And I just wanted to add that I really, really hope it didn't come off as if I was accusing you of making up Moffat's rebuttal. (I was trying very hard to make SURE it didn't come off that way, but I wasn't sure of how good a job I was doing.) I didn't at all think you were making it *up* -- I just wasn't sure if you'd actually read his response yourself, or if (like everybody else I'd talked to about it up to this point) his response was something you heard people talking about online but hadn't read for yourself. (Because in that case, I wouldn't have thought you were making it up; I just would have thought you'd gotten some bad information somewhere online.) You being able to say that you'd actually read Moffat's rebuttal for yourself, though, was what let me FINALLY know that the hearsay about his rebuttal is not just hearsay but is, in fact, an actual thing. (The links were just a bonus. :))

So: yeah. Thanks again. :) You've gotten at least one person to leave that quote out of any future is-Moffat-sexist debates she may have, so that's rather a good deed, I think. ;-)

And yes, we're all at least a little bit sexist; gender roles are too ingrained in us for us to help it. :P The thing that frustrates me above everything else when it comes to sexism in the world ... is when we women are our own worst enemy. Happens far too often! :P

[sea_thoughts]

No, you didn't come off like that at all. :D It's the Ravenclaw in me that makes me want to prove everything I have with quotes

The thing that frustrates me above everything else when it comes to sexism in the world ... is when we women are our own worst enemy. Happens far too often! :P

Urgh, no kidding. I participated in a rewatch of the third series a couple of months ago and the number of people who commented that they hated/disliked Martha for fancying the Doctor and wondered why someone as smart as her couldn't avoid that trap! In vain did I protest that your intellect has little influence on the people you fall in love with, that you don't have much choice about your emotions. *sigh* Then there are the girls who hate Ginny Weasley for standing up to her brother and telling him that her boyfriends aren't his business and call her a 'slut' because she actually went out with TWO guys before Harry.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Have you ever seen Definitely, Maybe? I have to admit that one of my favorite parts is when the dad has admitted to numerous sexual affairs so his daughter declares, "Slut!"

You almost never hear men being shamed for being promiscuous and I like the idea of it becoming a gender neutral word. Maybe that could help it become more obsolete.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Well, at least we did accomplish a few things with this post.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Well, thanks for explaining your view. I think I understand it better.

[bizarreoptimism.livejournal.com]

Thanks for listening! I appreciate that. :)

And, if it makes me sound like less of a jerk, ;-) -- ripping into a writer you enjoy and a show you love (I forgot you were a Coupling fan when I first went off on my Coupling rant):

That mention you made f it being a question of "Write what you know" in Coupling -- I think, in the end, that's what's made me part ways with Moffat's writing. Because what Moffat thematically knows -- what themes interest him most to write about -- are sexual relationships. This is fine if that's something that interests other audience members, but that has to be like THE singular theme I don't care about the most. I simply do not CARE. I often enjoy stories that explore _romantic_ relationships, whether sex is a part of that relationship or not (although romantic relationships in fiction are not my favorite relationships to explore through story; I'm much more interested in characters who are family members or who become friends than I am characters who are falling in love) -- but I really don't care about the sex-and-sexual-relationships theme. I just don't.

And that's what Coupling is ABOUT. Which is fine, but so of COURSE it wasn't going to be the show for me. The pornography speech just pushed it over the edge ... but yeah, it was never going to be a show I loved anyway.

Also: it's really, REALLY hard to write a show about sexual relationships and common gender tropes and not get accused of sexism now and then. One of my all-time favorite shows is Everybody Loves Raymond, which is a show that often got accused of being sexist and which I myself even found to be sexist in some episodes. I just love it so much, and find its merits to far outweigh its faults (it's usually NOT sexist in their earlier seasons, just as I suspect I wouldn't find Coupling to have a sexist theme EVERY episode), so let it go.

... I'm a big comic book fan, and sexism has been on my mind a lot lately as I struggle to find artists who don't depict the female characters as half-naked pin-up models. So this conversation is all very timely, for me. :D

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Ugh, I love comic books but unless it's an independent line, like Ghost World or Harvey Pekar's work, the females tend to be very disappointing. At least they're written a bit better than the olden days of either being shy and nervous about their powers, the ignorant girlfriend or evil, but for some reason, we've had to accept the big breasted Amazons in exchange for this slight achievement.

Not the men always have it any better either lately, have you seen the new Superman costume...it's like the male counterpart to the horrible Wonder Woman thing.

I also like Scott Pilgrim...I have a plush Ramona.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

It's so good to see you posting again!

I have noticed the bad girl thing but then, I was thinking about the Doctor. He's capable of these truly horrible acts but then he's always expected to better than everyone else. Whenever I hear him calling someone a "bad girl", not only does it seem affectionate but also a bit...wistful?

All the people who have meant so much to him were either a bit naughty to downright evil: Rose, River, Jack, The Corsair, The Master

Kind of a grass is always greener sort of deal, I guess? I know he definitely has some self-loathing issues because of the Dream lord episode.

I loved the episode, too! I know people want to know who Mels adoptive parents were but considering her mental capacity exceeded her physical form, I almost wonder if she took care of herself...like Faith/The Tarot Card Girl in Torchwood.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

You know what I found really interesting?

Less than two weeks apart, we established in new episodes of Doctor Who and Torchwood that both the Doctor and Jack "always lie" especially when both have said how they don't read the other's scripts. They just consult on the stuff that might affect the other show.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Ooh, creepy!

I don't actually do Confidentials or Monster Files...they shows bits of them on bbca, otherwise, I'm too lazy...it's not like we live in UK where they're on tv!

Well, PBS has their episodes that way but I never know when they're being shown...

[sea_thoughts]

Someone found these remarks he made about women in an interview he did for this series Coupling, which were sexist. Then someone linked him to them on Twitter and he said "Oh, I wonder where all these sexist accusations were coming from... I never said that, nor do I believe it."

I think there are some problems in Moffat's writing BUT there are problems with RTD's writing as well. I am happy to discuss the problems as long as people don't go on about how RTD was brilliant at writing women.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see...

I was online during the Coupling era and not just online, but communicating on the BBCA message board which Steven Moffat also frequented.

Here's the wonderful, horrible thing about that time which people not around at that time often fail to understand...

He was one of us, hehe. He could be serious, but more often than not, he was pulling your leg or making a joke. He was also very comfortable at going after posers and trolls...like if someone was trying to say they were Gina Bellman and he knew for a fact that they were NOT. We had wonderful times. Then, the majority of posts became how much everyone hated Oliver and he fled to Doctor Who, namely the Gallifrey board.

Coupling was what introduced me to Moffat since I only started watching Coupling because of Jack Davenport back in 2003.

[sea_thoughts]

Girl, I know! Half the reason I love Moffat is how he trolls the DW fans and plays games with us, both on the show and in his interviews. He himself has said that in interviews he's nearly always tongue-in-cheek.

[pomkeygeekange.livejournal.com]

You have hit the nail on the head perfectly there for me.

As for the skirt thing a) it was funny and b) Thats how people of Amys age dress in the UK! It would not be Moffats choice to put her in that anyway, it would be costume designers working with Karen Gillan that picked them. Get over it people.....rant over.

Rustys treatment of Characters in general Bugged me but I think Moffat has a better understanding of how to make a point without offending people.