This and that

[ericadawn16]

I forgot the part of stupid, crazy, love where I knew I would love hannah was when she admitted and defended her crush on conan o'brien.

Okay, I have now listened to the house of the dead. I now understand the Gwen thing.

However, I'm reminded of something that annoyed me about submission. Jack insists there's nothing after death. I know that Rusty and atheists and Jews and others believe there is nothing after death...but I can't. I don't see how that is all there is and I think the evidence in this play, house, contradicts that, too.

Now we've had the ghost machine. It makes the energy imprinted on an area come alive so you can watch previous events from that location but you can't interact with them. The radio play has the ghosts able to touch and hold things...an actual physical construct which would require a lot of information especially since they remember most of their life. Ianto's father also referred to being pulled out with everyone else so there are multiple people and he was aware of them. They weren't alone.

Also, the I love you was a nice confirmation of what we already knew/suspected from jack willing to give up the world if the aliens gave him into back.

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Comments

[spartan-117.livejournal.com]

As an atheist I don't believe there's anything past death. Never have. I've never understood why there has to be. Death is the absence of life. That's not to say I'm right I just don't need there to be anything after I die.

I love that Jack was willing to to do the whole 'consequences be damned.' thing to get Ianto back and finally telling him he loves him.

The thing with sci-fi though is it pushes the boundaries of what we believe because it's asking questions both on a moral and scientific level we can't necessarily answer and gives us theories to ponder as possible answers to those question

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

The thing with sci-fi though is it pushes the boundaries of what we believe because it's asking questions both on a moral and scientific level we can't necessarily answer and gives us theories to ponder as possible answers to those question.

While I believe in "life after death," not of a particular religious stripe, but more of a not believing in what we think of as "life" and "death" as being as definitive as we seem to like to think of them as being in the first place, my problem with RTD's having Jack insist on there being no afterlife is that like many things he isn't consistent about it. I mean it's "just darkness," except of course for the things "moving in it" and the number of people going in and out of it. If he made a consistent "moral and scientific" statement it would be one thing, but he treats it as being one way until it suits him to have it another. That isn't being deep, just lazy.

[spartan-117.livejournal.com]

The problem with TuRD is his seeming inability to not contradict his own canon. I'm yet to fathom why he even bothers since he either can't be arsed keeping up with his own canon or he just doesn't care that he constantly contradicts himself.

Apart from being very sloppy writing it's bloody infuriating.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

The thing with sci-fi though is it pushes the boundaries of what we believe because it's asking questions both on a moral and scientific level we can't necessarily answer and gives us theories to ponder as possible answers to those question

Honestly, I think that's the part about SciFi I don't tend to like that much. I don't do BSG or Dick or any of the "intelligent" science fiction. I prefer the fun stuff since when I want something intellectual, I'd rather watch C-Span or PBS or actual non-fiction books.

[spartan-117.livejournal.com]

I love 'intelligent' sci-fi. The Matrix didn't so much mentally wake me up as slap me across the face and turn my life on it's head. I'm still learning new things when I watch that film and I utterly love that.

I do like the fun stuff too. Sci-fi still has some damn good adventures for the sake of of a good rollicking adventure in space.

I can't read Dick. He's far too depressing for me even though I loved Blade Runner, the book was so depressing and A Scanner Darkly was even worse. I've not seen the film. I can't bring myself to watch it.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I've always believed in life after death and needed to. One of the reasons Ianto's death hit me so hard when less than a year before my granddad's death barely touched me was because I know that my granddad is back with my granny, where he's wanted to be since she died, and that I'll see them again one day. With Ianto, he's fictional, so I won't see him there, but also I couldn't believe in that salvation for him in his universe either, because they kept telling us there wasn't one.

House of the Dead was a nice contradition of that that I really needed, but I also needed not to lose him all over again. I still don't know quite how to deal with it

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

With Ianto, he's fictional, so I won't see him there, but also I couldn't believe in that salvation for him in his universe either, because they kept telling us there wasn't one.

Ah, but what they say is what they believe, and believing something doesn't make it The Truth. No matter how many times Jack has been dead, or how many of the characters who have been dead, have seen "only darkness," that doesn't make darkness all there is. It just makes it all they remember from being dead. If you believe in a Heaven and a benevolent God you might feel it's kinder to have them remember only darkness. I mean Joss Whedon had Buffy remember how she was torn out of Heaven by Willow when she was brought back to life at the start of Buffy the Vampire Slayer's sixth season. That was definitely very hard on Buffy.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

It was hard on Buffy but it also gave more meaning to all of it between her being in Heaven and the greater emphasis on the Powers That Be in Angel. Not only was it a great storyline to have her dealing with being torn out of Heaven and then choosing to live for those around her but then again, she'd always been told "death is her gift" which she thought was a croc. Then, she finds out it means Heaven so now she knows there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Actually, it'd be pretty neat if Jack gets caught in that the darkness is a lie he started to believe himself because it was better than thinking he'd never be able to die and get to Heaven or even worse...that he feels he could never be worthy of Heaven/Elysium Fields/etc after everything he's done...

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

I think that's why I didn't write a fix-it fic after CoE. Instead, I wrote the story where Jack and everyone had to deal with it but then, I had Ianto being in Heaven because that's how I wanted it: him and Tosh and Owen and everyone else.

[fiwen1010.livejournal.com]

I alwayas write fixits because I hate the idea of Jack being left behind to lose over, and over, and over again. He deserves and needs more than that

[aviv-b.livejournal.com]

Jews do have a concept of life after death - but its not straight forward. Judaism focuses on the here and not rewards in an afterlife - so much is left to individual interpretation. Here's a good resource on the topic:
http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Rusty's view on this annoys me no end. Not because he believes this - that's his business but because its one of his three themes he repeats over and over. 1.There's nothing out there. 2. Governmemt is evil. 3.Gays aren't allowed to have happy endings. There may be some truth to these, but really, I got it the first time through. I really dislike TV shows that try to shove messages down my throat. He needs to pay a lot more attention to his storytelling and a lot less to his 'messaging.'

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

...because its one of his three themes he repeats over and over.

*Nods.* That's another one of the ways he annoys me with it. It bothers me he isn't consistent about his message. He treats it as being one way until it suits him to have it another. AND it bothers me that while he can't be consistent about his message, he has to go over it again and again and again. I wish the man had a better grasp of continuity and of when to give a message a rest.

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for the link!

Yep, I totally agree about Rusty. Also, 3. the Doctor isn't allowed to have a happy ending either.

[captaintish]

What's the Gwen thing?

[ericadawn16.livejournal.com]

House of the Dead is partially from Ghost Ianto's PoV but he doesn't know at first that he's a ghost and neither does the listener. He thinks he's talking to Gwen who's stuck in traffic but Jack points out later that his Comlink isn't even on and that it was an alien manipulating him. Gwen's not actually in the play at all.